Comments on: A Can of Worms http://theappslab.com/2007/10/15/a-can-of-worms/ Driving Innovation Sat, 22 Nov 2008 11:51:40 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.3 By: US or Corporate Bloggers wanted | orawin.info http://theappslab.com/2007/10/15/a-can-of-worms/#comment-1569 US or Corporate Bloggers wanted | orawin.info Wed, 31 Oct 2007 21:54:52 +0000 http://oracleappslab.com/2007/10/15/a-can-of-worms/#comment-1569 <!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...] will get you a press pass to open world this year. Now the whole disclosure/expenses thing has been debated at length elsewhere, and we know where Oracle are on this. Now a free pass to open world might be interesting to me, but [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%--> [...] will get you a press pass to open world this year. Now the whole disclosure/expenses thing has been debated at length elsewhere, and we know where Oracle are on this. Now a free pass to open world might be interesting to me, but [...]

]]> By: Jake http://theappslab.com/2007/10/15/a-can-of-worms/#comment-1440 Jake Wed, 24 Oct 2007 22:31:42 +0000 http://oracleappslab.com/2007/10/15/a-can-of-worms/#comment-1440 Julien: Oracle is not covering any expenses, only giving bloggers a pass to the event. That said, we will see what happens after the event when bloggers post their thoughts. Julien: Oracle is not covering any expenses, only giving bloggers a pass to the event. That said, we will see what happens after the event when bloggers post their thoughts.

]]> By: Julien Lamarche http://theappslab.com/2007/10/15/a-can-of-worms/#comment-1437 Julien Lamarche Wed, 24 Oct 2007 18:32:55 +0000 http://oracleappslab.com/2007/10/15/a-can-of-worms/#comment-1437 The objection I think isn't so much if bloggers are being paid or not, its what happens if bloggers are critical of Oracle products. Does Oracle stop covering their expense? Environmentalists have always accused large media companies to cater to the interest of car advertisers. As a volunteer in a political riding association in Canada, I found it suprising how the relationship between an association and small community newspapers also change if you buy ad space from them. It will be interesting to see how the dynamics of the relationship between Oracle and bloggers develop, especially given that blogs are a new form of media over newspapers. The objection I think isn’t so much if bloggers are being paid or not, its what happens if bloggers are critical of Oracle products. Does Oracle stop covering their expense?

Environmentalists have always accused large media companies to cater to the interest of car advertisers. As a volunteer in a political riding association in Canada, I found it suprising how the relationship between an association and small community newspapers also change if you buy ad space from them. It will be interesting to see how the dynamics of the relationship between Oracle and bloggers develop, especially given that blogs are a new form of media over newspapers.

]]> By: Peter K's Blog: Disclosure & Bloggers http://theappslab.com/2007/10/15/a-can-of-worms/#comment-1356 Peter K's Blog: Disclosure & Bloggers Mon, 22 Oct 2007 12:27:26 +0000 http://oracleappslab.com/2007/10/15/a-can-of-worms/#comment-1356 <!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...] the recent "can of worms" that Jake blogged about on his Blog, I thought that Mary Ann Davidson kind of hit it on the nail [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%--> [...] the recent “can of worms” that Jake blogged about on his Blog, I thought that Mary Ann Davidson kind of hit it on the nail [...]

]]> By: Enterprise Bloggers, Openness and a Thriving Ecosystem| Zoli’s Blog http://theappslab.com/2007/10/15/a-can-of-worms/#comment-1349 Enterprise Bloggers, Openness and a Thriving Ecosystem| Zoli’s Blog Mon, 22 Oct 2007 01:47:09 +0000 http://oracleappslab.com/2007/10/15/a-can-of-worms/#comment-1349 [...] started this post a week ago, than canned it, not wanting to be part of the “storm in a teacup“, created by  Oracle’s announcement  that they would open up their annual [...] [...] started this post a week ago, than canned it, not wanting to be part of the “storm in a teacup“, created by  Oracle’s announcement  that they would open up their annual [...]

]]> By: Pythian Group Blog » Blog Archive » Log Buffer #67: A Carnival of the Vanities for DBAs http://theappslab.com/2007/10/15/a-can-of-worms/#comment-1278 Pythian Group Blog » Blog Archive » Log Buffer #67: A Carnival of the Vanities for DBAs Fri, 19 Oct 2007 21:08:10 +0000 http://oracleappslab.com/2007/10/15/a-can-of-worms/#comment-1278 <!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...] of Oracle AppsLab opened up a can of worms when he blogged about the fact that Oracle has “invited” Oracle bloggers to attend [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%--> [...] of Oracle AppsLab opened up a can of worms when he blogged about the fact that Oracle has “invited” Oracle bloggers to attend [...]

]]> By: Peter K http://theappslab.com/2007/10/15/a-can-of-worms/#comment-1244 Peter K Thu, 18 Oct 2007 21:40:51 +0000 http://oracleappslab.com/2007/10/15/a-can-of-worms/#comment-1244 The waived conference fees for invited bloggers is great and for those of us fortunate or unfortunate to be employed, our employers will and do pay for our T & L plus salaries to attend BUT that is for the sole purpose of learning not to blog about the event. For those who are self-employed, the "training/learning" mindset has to kick in where if a vendor offers or waives their training fees, would you attend even if you have to pay for your own T & L? I would think that each will have to consider the merits (i.e. benefits vs costs) BUT if Oracle intent that you are invited as "PRESS" with the expectation that your sole intent was to blog about the event (i.e. not for you to learn), then that's a different story. I am assuming here, but I think Oracle's intent was to invite the bloggers along to learn AND blog about the event (negative or positive). Obviously it looks like there are opportunities available to the bloggers that are not available to the general attendees so that is a plus. Regardless, FULL DISCLOSURE is the only way to go when blogging about the event/sessions. The waived conference fees for invited bloggers is great and for those of us fortunate or unfortunate to be employed, our employers will and do pay for our T & L plus salaries to attend BUT that is for the sole purpose of learning not to blog about the event.

For those who are self-employed, the “training/learning” mindset has to kick in where if a vendor offers or waives their training fees, would you attend even if you have to pay for your own T & L? I would think that each will have to consider the merits (i.e. benefits vs costs) BUT if Oracle intent that you are invited as “PRESS” with the expectation that your sole intent was to blog about the event (i.e. not for you to learn), then that’s a different story.

I am assuming here, but I think Oracle’s intent was to invite the bloggers along to learn AND blog about the event (negative or positive). Obviously it looks like there are opportunities available to the bloggers that are not available to the general attendees so that is a plus.

Regardless, FULL DISCLOSURE is the only way to go when blogging about the event/sessions.

]]> By: Floyd http://theappslab.com/2007/10/15/a-can-of-worms/#comment-1238 Floyd Thu, 18 Oct 2007 18:15:10 +0000 http://oracleappslab.com/2007/10/15/a-can-of-worms/#comment-1238 Jake, no worries about whether or not I was on the list...no big thing either way. My post was more intended to talk about the issue of comps for bloggers and to point out that a person's perspectives on this issue could be influenced by their individual situation. And we will definitely meet up at OOW...I'm looking forward to it! Jake, no worries about whether or not I was on the list…no big thing either way. My post was more intended to talk about the issue of comps for bloggers and to point out that a person’s perspectives on this issue could be influenced by their individual situation.

And we will definitely meet up at OOW…I’m looking forward to it!

]]> By: Tardate 11.1: A blog about nothing (was: a can of worms) http://theappslab.com/2007/10/15/a-can-of-worms/#comment-1235 Tardate 11.1: A blog about nothing (was: a can of worms) Thu, 18 Oct 2007 17:23:47 +0000 http://oracleappslab.com/2007/10/15/a-can-of-worms/#comment-1235 <!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...] Jake is right .. this is getting a little too much like Seinfeld.So many posts about bloggers at OpenWorld.Seems to me a storm in a teacup (admittedly, roughly the same size as a can of worms, but probably shouldn't be confused - print picture on right for easy reference). Most of it driven by a comparison to what "other" companies do.As an avid blog reader, I'm actually more interested in an intelligent post from someone who has taken some time to reflect and write about their usage of the software (be it from a project, production or just playing with an OTN download).Don't get me wrong, I definitely see value in blogging from OpenWorld - as much for the community buzz as discussion of the latest and greatest OpenWorld news. But to put too much emphasis on this I think actually plays into the hands of the supposed PR and Marketing heavies (everything focused around a single, well orchestrated event). Since I also represent a "global audience" (living in Singapore), there's also the geographic factor. Notwithstanding whether travel costs are reimbursed, I never expect an event centred around a single location in the US to fully represent the diversity of the blogging community I'm so comfortable with.As such, I'd be even more impressed if we saw OTN podcasts evolve into a more interactive channel (e.g. using talkshoe a la net@nite) to give true, open access for the community to key execs (and then blog about it).Then there is the question of disclosure. Mary Ann Davidson just posted a poignant discussion of disclosure. Although arrowed at a security audience, the timing is perfect for the opening of Jake's can of worms;-)I just can't seem to get myself worked up over this either. Perhaps something I drank last night? Or perhaps I've just got a bit more faith in the sophistication of the audience that is now growing up with blogging et al. Two factors: influence (declared or not) stands out like a sore thumb (or else why is it so easy to recognise the executive blogs that are straight out of the marketing playbook). Second, thanks to the magic of RSS I'm not just listening to one person's voice.So all in all, I reckon getting free registration is a pretty good first step (despite the fact that other companies may do more for you). It's not like the information won't be available for all to see and share after the show, so if you want the prestige of having the first blog post up on a particular subject maybe paying some of your own way ain't such a bad deal. I would make one concession however: I do think it would be in Oracle and the community's best interest for Oracle to have some flexibility when it comes to the (very) few bloggers who have truely crossed the line and are in fact analyst/press and should thus be treated as such. So much for my post about nothing;-)Disclosure: since I work at Oracle, I never expected a blogger invite (and I wasn't able to wangle an employee seat), so perhaps that explains my disinterest in getting all het up about the issue! [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%--> [...] Jake is right .. this is getting a little too much like Seinfeld.So many posts about bloggers at OpenWorld.Seems to me a storm in a teacup (admittedly, roughly the same size as a can of worms, but probably shouldn’t be confused - print picture on right for easy reference). Most of it driven by a comparison to what “other” companies do.As an avid blog reader, I’m actually more interested in an intelligent post from someone who has taken some time to reflect and write about their usage of the software (be it from a project, production or just playing with an OTN download).Don’t get me wrong, I definitely see value in blogging from OpenWorld - as much for the community buzz as discussion of the latest and greatest OpenWorld news. But to put too much emphasis on this I think actually plays into the hands of the supposed PR and Marketing heavies (everything focused around a single, well orchestrated event). Since I also represent a “global audience” (living in Singapore), there’s also the geographic factor. Notwithstanding whether travel costs are reimbursed, I never expect an event centred around a single location in the US to fully represent the diversity of the blogging community I’m so comfortable with.As such, I’d be even more impressed if we saw OTN podcasts evolve into a more interactive channel (e.g. using talkshoe a la net@nite) to give true, open access for the community to key execs (and then blog about it).Then there is the question of disclosure. Mary Ann Davidson just posted a poignant discussion of disclosure. Although arrowed at a security audience, the timing is perfect for the opening of Jake’s can of worms;-)I just can’t seem to get myself worked up over this either. Perhaps something I drank last night? Or perhaps I’ve just got a bit more faith in the sophistication of the audience that is now growing up with blogging et al. Two factors: influence (declared or not) stands out like a sore thumb (or else why is it so easy to recognise the executive blogs that are straight out of the marketing playbook). Second, thanks to the magic of RSS I’m not just listening to one person’s voice.So all in all, I reckon getting free registration is a pretty good first step (despite the fact that other companies may do more for you). It’s not like the information won’t be available for all to see and share after the show, so if you want the prestige of having the first blog post up on a particular subject maybe paying some of your own way ain’t such a bad deal. I would make one concession however: I do think it would be in Oracle and the community’s best interest for Oracle to have some flexibility when it comes to the (very) few bloggers who have truely crossed the line and are in fact analyst/press and should thus be treated as such. So much for my post about nothing;-)Disclosure: since I work at Oracle, I never expected a blogger invite (and I wasn’t able to wangle an employee seat), so perhaps that explains my disinterest in getting all het up about the issue! [...]

]]> By: Jake http://theappslab.com/2007/10/15/a-can-of-worms/#comment-1216 Jake Wed, 17 Oct 2007 19:58:52 +0000 http://oracleappslab.com/2007/10/15/a-can-of-worms/#comment-1216 Floyd: You were on the list, as were nearly all of the people who responded. I've been told by a few folks that registering as "Press" isn't working for them either. Hold tight, if you're waiting. I'm waiting to hear back from PR. I hope to meet you in person at OOW. Floyd: You were on the list, as were nearly all of the people who responded. I’ve been told by a few folks that registering as “Press” isn’t working for them either. Hold tight, if you’re waiting. I’m waiting to hear back from PR. I hope to meet you in person at OOW.

]]> By: Floyd http://theappslab.com/2007/10/15/a-can-of-worms/#comment-1213 Floyd Wed, 17 Oct 2007 18:16:51 +0000 http://oracleappslab.com/2007/10/15/a-can-of-worms/#comment-1213 I can also shine some sunlight on one important fact regarding my own blog...nobody's paying me. I did not receive a blogger's invitation from Oracle this year, so my decision was an easy one. More thoughts that came after hitting the "Post Comment" button the first time... I'm actually in a very fortunate position regarding to this matter. My employer (the Jet Propulsion Lab) considers my attendance at OpenWorld to be an important part of my job, so they're paying all my associated costs for attending as well as my salary while I'm there. So, I'm fortunate in my ability to combine my blogging with "just doing my job." My perspectives might be more in line with Vinnie's if I were faced with loss of income and out-of-pocket costs in order to attend OpenWorld. If I allowed Oracle to cover any portion of my T&E or registration costs, I would feel obligated to disclose that fact to my readers. They could then form their own opinions as to whether I'd become the "King's man" by accepting the "King's shilling". I can also shine some sunlight on one important fact regarding my own blog…nobody’s paying me. I did not receive a blogger’s invitation from Oracle this year, so my decision was an easy one.
More thoughts that came after hitting the “Post Comment” button the first time…

I’m actually in a very fortunate position regarding to this matter. My employer (the Jet Propulsion Lab) considers my attendance at OpenWorld to be an important part of my job, so they’re paying all my associated costs for attending as well as my salary while I’m there. So, I’m fortunate in my ability to combine my blogging with “just doing my job.”

My perspectives might be more in line with Vinnie’s if I were faced with loss of income and out-of-pocket costs in order to attend OpenWorld.

If I allowed Oracle to cover any portion of my T&E or registration costs, I would feel obligated to disclose that fact to my readers. They could then form their own opinions as to whether I’d become the “King’s man” by accepting the “King’s shilling”.

]]> By: Floyd http://theappslab.com/2007/10/15/a-can-of-worms/#comment-1211 Floyd Wed, 17 Oct 2007 17:59:04 +0000 http://oracleappslab.com/2007/10/15/a-can-of-worms/#comment-1211 I'm not sure just where I come down in regards to the "blogger invitation" issue. However, the discussion has led me to significant consideration of blogging and ethics. I don't know how my consideration will play out in relation to my own blogging, but thanks to all this discussion's contributors for getting my mental gears turning on the subject. Good stuff! I’m not sure just where I come down in regards to the “blogger invitation” issue. However, the discussion has led me to significant consideration of blogging and ethics. I don’t know how my consideration will play out in relation to my own blogging, but thanks to all this discussion’s contributors for getting my mental gears turning on the subject. Good stuff!

]]> By: Paul http://theappslab.com/2007/10/15/a-can-of-worms/#comment-1206 Paul Wed, 17 Oct 2007 14:02:54 +0000 http://oracleappslab.com/2007/10/15/a-can-of-worms/#comment-1206 Hi Jake. clearly if you want to keep the network execs sweet, you need a blog about "nothing" Hi Jake.

clearly if you want to keep the network execs sweet, you need a blog about “nothing”

]]> By: James Governor’s Monkchips » links for 2007-10-16 http://theappslab.com/2007/10/15/a-can-of-worms/#comment-1195 James Governor’s Monkchips » links for 2007-10-16 Tue, 16 Oct 2007 23:26:24 +0000 http://oracleappslab.com/2007/10/15/a-can-of-worms/#comment-1195 [...] Oracle AppsLab » A Can of Worms Its good to see Oracle inviting bloggers to Open World. Not sure how they managed to spin no T&E into a criticism of SAP and various bloggers-but i guess that’s just a lens for seeing the world. (tags: Oracle SAP blogging) [...] [...] Oracle AppsLab » A Can of Worms Its good to see Oracle inviting bloggers to Open World. Not sure how they managed to spin no T&E into a criticism of SAP and various bloggers-but i guess that’s just a lens for seeing the world. (tags: Oracle SAP blogging) [...]

]]> By: jeff nolan http://theappslab.com/2007/10/15/a-can-of-worms/#comment-1185 jeff nolan Tue, 16 Oct 2007 19:20:45 +0000 http://oracleappslab.com/2007/10/15/a-can-of-worms/#comment-1185 Marius, Thanks for your last comment, I apologize if my response to you was heated. Marius,
Thanks for your last comment, I apologize if my response to you was heated.

]]> By: Jake http://theappslab.com/2007/10/15/a-can-of-worms/#comment-1183 Jake Tue, 16 Oct 2007 18:40:51 +0000 http://oracleappslab.com/2007/10/15/a-can-of-worms/#comment-1183 Vinnie: I already conceded your point and changed the verbiage to your liking. I'm trying to get information about what the program entails. I'm on an island here with no information, but I agree that access to executives could tip the balance for some of the invitees. I will update when I hear anything. Vinnie: I already conceded your point and changed the verbiage to your liking. I’m trying to get information about what the program entails.

I’m on an island here with no information, but I agree that access to executives could tip the balance for some of the invitees.

I will update when I hear anything.

]]> By: vinnie mirchandani http://theappslab.com/2007/10/15/a-can-of-worms/#comment-1182 vinnie mirchandani Tue, 16 Oct 2007 18:06:35 +0000 http://oracleappslab.com/2007/10/15/a-can-of-worms/#comment-1182 Jake, expenses are a red herring. 2K will not break me or you. It was your point about not paying it to keep us impartial that got me going. As I wrote last night given the lack of clarity around executive and customer access at OOW the 2K issue becomes larger - because it clouds the ROI I get from the conference. But it does not deserve all the ink it had gotten and I apologize for that. Jake, expenses are a red herring. 2K will not break me or you. It was your point about not paying it to keep us impartial that got me going. As I wrote last night given the lack of clarity around executive and customer access at OOW the 2K issue becomes larger - because it clouds the ROI I get from the conference. But it does not deserve all the ink it had gotten and I apologize for that.

]]> By: Michael Krigsman http://theappslab.com/2007/10/15/a-can-of-worms/#comment-1177 Michael Krigsman Tue, 16 Oct 2007 16:31:27 +0000 http://oracleappslab.com/2007/10/15/a-can-of-worms/#comment-1177 Marius, Thanks for the clarification. Since the beginning of time, con artists have used any means at their disposal to swindle and manipulate others. Unfortunately, it sounds like you hang around with some pretty sleazy characters. I'm sure you totally distance yourself from those activities, so this is no comment about you. By the way, you aren't a PMO guy at Oracle, are you? Marius, Thanks for the clarification. Since the beginning of time, con artists have used any means at their disposal to swindle and manipulate others. Unfortunately, it sounds like you hang around with some pretty sleazy characters. I’m sure you totally distance yourself from those activities, so this is no comment about you.

By the way, you aren’t a PMO guy at Oracle, are you?

]]> By: Marius http://theappslab.com/2007/10/15/a-can-of-worms/#comment-1176 Marius Tue, 16 Oct 2007 16:20:11 +0000 http://oracleappslab.com/2007/10/15/a-can-of-worms/#comment-1176 Michael K., sorry if my comments was misunderstood. My comments were not directed at Jeff. I was talking in general about so called marketing companies that take advantage of the Web 2.0 world. I have a friend that runs one of this companies. You basically hire his service to promote a product. He has a team in India that will start fake Blogs, create fake reviews, participate in forums adding marketing information about the product. He claims that this is how Enterprise should leverage Web 2.0 for marketing. He actually has a many success stories. I personally don't like this approach, but I can't ignore it. Michael K.,

sorry if my comments was misunderstood. My comments were not directed at Jeff. I was talking in general about so called marketing companies that take advantage of the Web 2.0 world. I have a friend that runs one of this companies. You basically hire his service to promote a product. He has a team in India that will start fake Blogs, create fake reviews, participate in forums adding marketing information about the product. He claims that this is how Enterprise should leverage Web 2.0 for marketing. He actually has a many success stories. I personally don’t like this approach, but I can’t ignore it.

]]> By: Jake http://theappslab.com/2007/10/15/a-can-of-worms/#comment-1167 Jake Tue, 16 Oct 2007 14:38:59 +0000 http://oracleappslab.com/2007/10/15/a-can-of-worms/#comment-1167 Pete: Sorry about the timing and that you won't be able to make it. This has been in the works for months, and I actually thought it was dead b/c I hadn't heard as recently as this time last week. As you can see from the exchanges, we're getting lots of ideas for next year. Vinnie: Dude, I know you're not calling ignorance ingenious. I can't speak for Justin, but I really do not know details about analyst relations. If you want me to admit they are paid, then yes, I do know that. There is no travel budget b/c the precedent was set by SAP, right, wrong, indifferent. How much more obvious does that need to be? I agree you are independent and respect that about you. It shows through in your blog and through other's comments about you. This point is also well taken. I myself am not sure what the program entails, but I assume the event access is full, meaning that the bloggers can mingle on the demo floors with customers, partners, employees, press, media, etc. and attend sessions, just like customers. I don't know about executive access, but I can ask. So, it seems we have a long list for next, if PR extends the program. I hope they will. Thanks for your thoughts and assistance in understanding the mindset of your fellow bloggers. Pete: Sorry about the timing and that you won’t be able to make it. This has been in the works for months, and I actually thought it was dead b/c I hadn’t heard as recently as this time last week. As you can see from the exchanges, we’re getting lots of ideas for next year.

Vinnie: Dude, I know you’re not calling ignorance ingenious. I can’t speak for Justin, but I really do not know details about analyst relations. If you want me to admit they are paid, then yes, I do know that.

There is no travel budget b/c the precedent was set by SAP, right, wrong, indifferent. How much more obvious does that need to be?

I agree you are independent and respect that about you. It shows through in your blog and through other’s comments about you.

This point is also well taken. I myself am not sure what the program entails, but I assume the event access is full, meaning that the bloggers can mingle on the demo floors with customers, partners, employees, press, media, etc. and attend sessions, just like customers. I don’t know about executive access, but I can ask.

So, it seems we have a long list for next, if PR extends the program. I hope they will.

Thanks for your thoughts and assistance in understanding the mindset of your fellow bloggers.

]]>